The Dev is in the Details

Ninder Johal from Nachural on celebrating the success, building communities, and shaping the future | The Dev is in the Details #17

• Lukasz Lazewski

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► How to learn to celebrate entrepreneurship, build meaningful business relations, and not be afraid of failure? 

In the latest episode of The Dev is in the Details, Ninder Johal – an entrepreneur with a music industry background who’s now focusing on supporting entrepreneurs internationally – explains why it’s important to recognize business leaders and their impact on communities, companies, and countries. 

We discuss how to emphasize the role of entrepreneurs both locally and globally, the impact of education, and why we shouldn’t be afraid to fail. Ninder shares the importance of communities, learning from others, and social impact on building successful businesses. We explore the future of young entrepreneurs and how to support them in their growth and achievements. 

In the business world, where competition, growth, and KPIs receive the most attention, we should remember that, beyond these, there’s a human element that needs to be recognized.  


► Our guest 

Ninder Johal is a business passionate, an entrepreneur, and a seasoned leader. As a founder of Nachural, a company that runs prestigious awards and publishes The Business Influencer magazine, he highlights the power of recognition and its impact on leaders and their mindset.


► In today’s episode:

  • Ninder’s take on the value the recognition gives to leaders and businesses
  • How to learn from others and for self-employment
  • What’s the role of society, community, and support in business
  • The impact of AI on today’s business landscape
  • Advice and best practices for young entrepreneurs 


► Decoding the timeline:

00:00:00 - The power of recognition and its impact on individuals, organizations, and regions 

00:06:48 - Cultural difference in celebrating success and entrepreneurship 

00:08:37 - The education factor: learning for employment, not self-employment 

00:11:54 - Awards as another marketing channel, not the “vanity exercise”

00:13:41 - Branding, quality, and being the very best you can, and how to measure the awards' impact

00:21:10 - The social aspect and community building 

00:23:47 - Diversity as the key in learning from others and belonging to different organizations

00:28:14 - The future of recognition and community building in the AI world

00:35:45 - The opportunities and challenges for young entrepreneurs 

00:42:34 - How to prevent the brain drain in local communities

00:50:04 - Choosing the role models and seeking inspiration in Europe as a young entrepreneur 

00:57:33 - A look at the future of business communities and youth entrepreneurship

***

The Dev is in the Details is a podcast where we talk about technology, business and their impacts on the world around us.

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Connect with Lukas on LinkedIn or write to us at podcast@llinformatics.com.

Ninder:

Every country, its economy is reliant on business. Without business, you're not going to get the taxis. Without business, you're not going to get the new products. And without business, you're not going to get employment. We don't seem to acknowledge that as much as we should do. So I'll tell you where we made the mistake. We were doing really well. We just had commercial success, but we ignored the world around us.

Lukasz:

In business, we often talk about growth and competition. But real progress happens when we celebrate people, build communities, and invest in the future. My guest today knows this firsthand. Before moving into business leadership, Ninder Johal made his mark in the music industry with his company Nachural Records. The label produced the global hit Mundian To Bach Ke, which sold over 15 million copies, hit number one in nine countries, reached number five in the UK, and even featured Jay-Z. When the music industry was disrupted by digital change, Ninder successfully pivoted into events and business. Today he is the founder of Nachural, which runs prestigious awards, publishes the Business Influencer magazine, and produces a successful podcast. He also serves on several boards, including WM5G, the West Midlands India Partnership, and chairs the Wolverhampton Towns Founder. In this episode, we will explore two themes: why celebrating success and building communities matter more than ever, and also how we can prepare the next generation of leaders and entrepreneurs. I'm Lucas, and this is Dev in the Details Podcast. Ninder, welcome. It's a pleasure to have you here.

Ninder:

Listen, thank you for taking that time. Thank you for inviting me. And I'm in Birmingham and it's very sunny outside. Such a great day to have a conversation.

Lukasz:

Fantastic. Thank you. Super. So I would like to start with the topic of power of recognition. You built major awards that shine a spotlight on business success. And at the deeper level, what does the recognition actually do for individual organization or even the entire region?

Ninder:

Okay, so my journey in the music industry really informed me on what's important. So I spent about 10-15 years traveling around the world trying to persuade people to purchase music from me. And the music that we had was a fusion of Indian melodies and British beats, English beats, Western beats. When you put that together, it was quite different as a sound. It's dance, dance sound, but it's different. And whilst we had some great success with it, the journey was a very lonely journey. You know, traveling around the world trying to persuade people. And I asked myself, I'm not alone. There must be lots of entrepreneurs and business owners who are actually very lonely within that journey.

Lukasz:

Right.

Ninder:

And even when they get to what they wanted to get to, it's been such a hard, challenging journey. Actually, they forget to celebrate of what they've done.

Lukasz:

Yeah.

Ninder:

And because they're so consumed by trying to get there, they forget what a journey they've had. So when I set the awards up, I set it up with a number of objectives. One was to acknowledge people who do a great job. Now, I don't know much about Poland in terms of its economy, but my guess is every country, including Poland, including the UK, America, whichever country you go to, its economy is reliant on business.

Lukasz:

Absolutely.

Ninder:

Because without business, without business, you're not going to get the taxes. Without business, you're not going to get the new products. And without business, you're not going to get employment. But interestingly, nobody, or certainly in the UK, we don't seem to acknowledge that as much as we should do. And I think the awards were set up, one, to celebrate those people who pay taxes, who employ people, who come up with new products, and make society a much better place. So we're celebrating them because everyone else has forgotten to do it. We're also saying to those individuals and businesses, not only congratulations, but actually when they put their submission in, it forces them to remind themselves of the journey they had. So in other words, by documenting it, they've remembered the challenges and the problems they've had to get to where they have. And it reminds them that actually they've done a great job, not only for their company, not only for the employees, not only for the region in which they live in, but actually for the country. Because they're doing all these great things, but we seem to forget to applaud them. And that's really why I set out to do that, because I know the journey I had was a difficult one. And I think, secondly, when they come to the awards, and if they win, it motivates the team to do even more because they're inspired. I think, secondly, people around them acknowledge what they've done, and I think it can be also on the night a great team building exercise because actually you bring the team together and say, look, whether we win or not, we're in this room with other fantastic businesses and we're doing a great job for the community, for the region and for the country.

Lukasz:

And I never thought of it that way. It's it's really fascinating, you know, with the big picture that you just described. It's it's yeah, really impressive.

Ninder:

Yeah. And sorry, what it also does, sorry, what it also does is if we acknowledge the contribution of these people, because remember, some of them have taken great risks to set these businesses.

Lukasz:

Oh, absolutely.

Ninder:

They've put money, they've put their houses on the line, they've taken they've put money in their savings, so they've taken a great risk in the first place. And by the way, not everybody succeeds, so there's a lot of people that don't succeed.

Lukasz:

Absolutely.

Ninder:

And so I think what we're trying to do is we're trying to appreciate the risk they took to get them where they got to. And as I said, the big picture is that without business, doesn't matter which country, without business, society fails.

Lukasz:

Yeah, exactly. I mean, and somehow I feel in Europe we celebrate this far less than in the United States, for example, right? That's there is a cultural difference that also through my travels I noticed.

Ninder:

Lucas, that's a fantastic point. So I I'll give you an example of that. That is a fantastic point. So I had I've always been approached by social media companies from America who say, We will do your social media. And I always say, No, you can't, and they say, Well, why not? I said, You're based in America where the culture is to celebrate entrepreneurship.

Lukasz:

Right.

Ninder:

I said, in the UK, if I drive around in a really fancy car, or I said, what you do is you take my photo and behind me you put a private jet or a Rolls-Royce, you think it's good, but people won't like it here. So, Lucas, you have a fantastic point there that Europe, which includes the UK, doesn't seem to applaud entrepreneurship as much as they should do. And I think therefore, people like me and lots of other people need to set a platform where we have to celebrate because no one else is going to do it. We have to do it. And I would then say, Finally, Lucas, you it's a great point. Business succeeds despite this problem.

Lukasz:

Yeah, exactly.

Ninder:

Despite the problem that people don't appreciate what they do, they still succeed. So these people are pretty special people that take the risk, keep going, keep going, and do so well.

Lukasz:

Yeah, of course. And how would you like I'm curious? You you said it yourself, most of the entrepreneurs fail, right? And except for financial impact or financial risk, there's also psychological the family impact, right? Because some some people work 16 you know with yourself, right? Multiple hours a day, you don't have time for kids, you don't have time for your you know to socialize with friends and family, and you know, those connections also fall apart. How can we highlight this? Because it's you gotta endure for a lot, right? To get anywhere, yeah. And even if you fail, and the business fails, I mean, I don't consider the entire exercise a failure because usually these learnings are so powerful that they stay, a lot of things that I've learned in that process stayed with me for the next one or for entire life. What are your like how can we highlight some of that as well so people are not afraid that it's it's not so binary, success, and you know, bum, you're an amazing, as you said, jet behind your back or whatnot, versus okay, there's a lot of learning, there's a lot of other benefits which cannot even be you know calculated in terms of money.

Ninder:

I think the problem lies, and I think Lucas, you can understand this because we're in Europe, I think the problem lies with the education system. So I think the education system, the education system is such that it prepares people for employment, not self-employment. So it prepares people to go and get a job. It doesn't say to people, have you thought about setting your own business up? So a lot of people go into business not being fully prepared, both from a knowledge perspective, this is what it needs, also from a skill perspective, you need a certain sort of skill to run a business. And I think thirdly, if the culture that surrounds you is one of anti-business, the only place you're gonna change that is kids at a young age who are told, by the way, there is another route which is self-employment, create and instead of ignoring the great entrepreneurs of the world, and when we talk about history, because that you know we're all taught history, but nobody ever teaches history about the great entrepreneurs, so there is no inspiration at school for people to say, I want to be the next Lucas, I want to be the next Steve Jobs, or I want to be the next Bill Gates. There is no inspiration, and then you wonder why economies in certain countries never grow. So I think we have a cultural problem, and I think what we're trying to do with the awards is do our little small bit to counter that cultural problem, which you and I both understand exists.

Lukasz:

Sure, absolutely. And but going back for a second to the awards, right? I know a lot of people who would consider them a bit of a vanity exercise. And from your experience, what is the better way of looking at them or correct way of looking at that?

Ninder:

Okay, no. If you took that word vanity, then we wouldn't be advertising in newspapers, we wouldn't be marketing our products, we wouldn't be trying to persuade people to buy products. All of those you could argue are vanity. In other words, why have you put an article in that newspaper? So it depends how you take it, and I think awards, as well as all the psychological reasons we've spoken about, I think can also give you a competitive advantage. So that if you manage to win or be a finalist, you can say to your customer base, I was a finalist or a winner. That is the same as placing an ad or doing a documentary or being featured on news channels, it's the same, it's another marketing channel, as well as and I said that earlier on, as well as you remembering the journey you've got to and reminding yourself why you are where you are. So I think when it comes to vanity, I would say to somebody who says that to me, my guess is then, my friend, you do no marketing. No, if they say, Well, we do, I'll say, Well, that's vanity then.

Lukasz:

Fair enough.

Ninder:

Unless you're telling me you do nothing.

Lukasz:

No, of course. I and I like that point. Yeah, I would agree with it. The what about like the market is flooded with companies who are proposing you know, pay for award kind of solutions as well. So yours is very, you know, it's it's fantastic, it has a history, fantastic participants, right? You did you put a lot of work into building this. It costed you a lot of effort, I'm sure, and you're build up the reputation of the entire thing. But you know, on a weekly basis, on a monthly basis, I would receive emails saying, like, hey, you got pre-selected, you want something, just pay 50 bucks here, and you're gonna get the award. What do you how do you comment on this one? Like the quality of the markets spectrum of a lot of different offerings.

Ninder:

Okay, look, in every sector, there's competition. Right. You got lots of lawyers, you got lots of accountants, lots of banks, you've got that equally applies to Wardenights. And I would say to anybody operating in their industry, you have to be the very best you can be in your industry. And if you are the very best in your industry, you will create a brand. That brand becomes trusted, and then people participate. So in London, we're gonna have 500 people. So we do London, we do Birmingham, we do Manchester, we do Leicester, we do Northampton.

Lukasz:

Beautiful.

Ninder:

And we've built a brand now. And people say to me, Why'd you do it? Why do you work so hard? And I said, Because I believe in wealth creation, I believe in celebrating entrepreneurship, but also at these events, you're in the event, you're in the room with some other fantastic businesses that you can learn from. And in terms of competitive advantage, if you've won something a nd a client has to decide between you and someone who hasn't won anything, I can tell you they're probably gonna go for you. Now, what they will probably also do is if someone else has won an award and it's they're gonna look at who gave you the award, that's where the brand comes in.

Lukasz:

Surely, yeah.

Ninder:

If you're saying I've got six awards from brands they've never heard of, they're gonna discount that compared to someone they've heard of. So it is all about branding, it is all about quality, and it's all about being the very best you can do. And if you do the very best you can, people notice that.

Lukasz:

Fantastic. And I couldn't agree more because it's yeah, values-wise, it resonates with me very strongly. And, is there any way to measure these outcomes? You know, in marketing, we have certain KPIs, MQLs that come through a specific channels we invest in, right? How would you say this is measured for the awards?

Ninder:

Okay, so this also depends on the winner. So we do quite a bit of marketing when somebody has won. And we'll do articles in our Business Influencer magazine, particularly the ones, you know, who've done really well. But equally, the people who have won, they've also got to tell people they've won. Back to your vanity thing. That's the same as smart thing. That's the same as smart thing. So if you've won something, you need to tell your clients you've won something. Now I know, I know, I've gonna give you two or three examples. So I remember there was a local restaurant. Um, so we were doing the awards in Wolverhampton, and they won a particular award. And the following week they insisted I come and visit them. I said, Well, you said really, really insisted. And I said, I'll pop I'll pop down, and when I went to the restaurant, they had this big big banner said, We are winners. And I said, Wow, that looks impressive. That looks impressive. They said, Well, the local media picked up that we won, and I couldn't believe what he said next. And he said, our bookings have doubled.

Lukasz:

Nice.

Ninder:

I thought, wow. Now I was very happy with that. Now, why am I happy? I'll tell you why I'm happy with that. Because if they double their turnover, they're gonna recruit more people.

Lukasz:

Yeah.

Ninder:

Those people are then gonna pay tax, those people are gonna spend money in the community.

Lukasz:

Yeah, lifts up entire things.

Ninder:

That means there's more money going around, and the thing explodes. So that's one example. Let me give you another one which was really interesting. So there's a guy you entered from the wards, and for three years on the trot, he never won. And on the fourth year, he came up to me and said, by the way, I'm not entering again. I said, I'm really sorry that you haven't won. He said, No, no, no, I'm fine. I said, What do you mean? He said, Well, because I've been a nominee, everybody in this city knows who I am. So I'm done. He said, I've done my promotion , and I'm off. Now let me give you my personal story. So I was I was president of the Black Country Chamber of Commerce, and I was entered for the Sunday Times, it's a national newspaper here. I was entered for the Sunday Times non-executive director of the year. And I remember going to the event, and I remember being a runner up, number two, not number one, number two. Okay, and um and I left the building and I and this is when Twitter was good. I tweeted, congratulations to I can't remember his the chap's name, congratulations to Mr. X on winning the award. I'm thankful for becoming a runner-up. That's all I did. I tweeted it, and I was in London, and my local newspaper read that, and the following morning, I didn't know this until somebody told me, they ran a big story. Local businessman becomes runner-up. Couldn't believe it, and lots of people started congratulating me. I was came second, but that's not when it finishes, so you have to be in the room.

Lukasz:

Yeah,

Ninder:

But that's not where it finishes. Then a month later, the Sunday Times rang me and said, Would you now like to be a judge?

Lukasz:

Oh.

Ninder:

So suddenly I became a judge, and for the next five years at the judging panels, I met some brilliant business people who I would have never met. And you know something, Lucas? I didn't even win.

Lukasz:

Yeah, perfect. I really like those examples.

Ninder:

So you've got to be in the room for people to know. I think Lucas, uh, we all know this because of social media now. Is you could be the best at what you do, but if you're quiet about it, if nobody knows you're there, if nobody's heard of you, then people who have an inferior product simply by being more visible, will take your business off you.

Lukasz:

Absolutely.

Ninder:

So visibility is key, networking with other people is key. Telling people how good you are is key, and making sure clients know how good you are is key. Now, you can call that vanity if you want, or you can call it marketing, it's up to you.

Lukasz:

Absolutely. No, no, I fully agree. It's but beyond marketing, do you feel there is a social aspect like gluing communities together, helping in regions, or you know, especially in bad times, right? When they're tough, when the times are tough like nowadays.

Ninder:

I think that's a fantastic, fantastic point. Do you remember when I started at the outside, at right at the outset, I talked about it being lonely? Do you remember I talked about it being lonely?

Lukasz:

Absolutely.

Ninder:

And I think what events like this is they bring those lonely people together under one roof and they acknowledge people who've performed brilliantly in each sector, and it's also community building because you can become friends with people, then eventually, you know something? If you treat people with integrity and they see that you're respectful to them, then don't be surprised if they ring you and give you business or refer you to someone else.

Lukasz:

Right.

Ninder:

Who can also give you business. So, therefore, you know something it's community building because we're all in the same community, but it also reminds us all why we're there, and it brings people together, and depends on your definition of community. So, a lot of businesses sell to a particular community, and so therefore, the difference I think what we do is we bring different communities together. And my final point we have a reputation in the UK for being very diverse, and I mean in that that in the sense that people from different backgrounds, ethnicity, people from different industries, and people from different geographies come together. And that probably would not be possible if you operated on your own and didn't belong to a community. And my final comment as human beings, we are engineered to be social. We are engineered to sit with people, to mix with people.

Lukasz:

Yeah, it's in our DNA.

Ninder:

To talk to people. Yeah, and and you know the worst uh the worst prison sentence they can give you is isolation in the cell. There's a reason behind that. Because they know the worst thing you can do to a human being is isolate them by themselves. That's the hardest punishment you can give someone. I know that because it's part of our DNA.

Lukasz:

Of course. And what about other organizations? Like, you know, I'm a member of EO, Entrepreneurs Organization, that Verne Harnish started, right? From Scale Up Book Outer. Fantastic businessman, right? From I mean, I never met him, but I read the book and I love it. How about these kind of communities? Because EO was actually formed exactly for the very similar reason. How he felt lonely, right? And he just wanted to meet other people like himself who who were facing similar challenges, similar problems on a daily basis, uh, even on a stress level, right? Psychological impact on the individuals who are leading business or trying to build business. Um so many different topics that they need to you know dwell on. Um, how about these communities? How do you feel do you see them as a competition? Do you see them as something that you could uh connect to with with the awards uh organization? Or what are your thoughts on this?

Ninder:

I think my thoughts are on collaboration is always the best way forward. If you partner with people, you both benefit from that partnership. My doors are always open to anybody who wants to come in to work in collaboration or partnership, and I think in a world that's becoming smaller.

Lukasz:

Certainly.

Ninder:

I think, yeah, I think, and this is a an example of it. Um, I think the more partnerships you do, and I think I'll tell you what, you get from partnerships, you learn a lot from other people.

Lukasz:

Yeah.

Ninder:

And I think this is where diversity is key. If you can spend more time with people who don't look like you, who don't dress like you, and who don't talk like you, the likelihood is you will learn a lot from them, and they will learn a lot from you. And you know, life is all about learning and lifelong learning. So I think I don't see anybody as competition. I think there's space for everyone, and I think the bit that I would encourage is I would encourage whoever's in that marketplace to up the quality because if you up the quality, then everybody will see that marketplace as something they want to visit, and you know, they can go to as many events as they want, as long as they're all good, and if they're all good, then we all look good.

Lukasz:

Absolutely. Are you a member of any of these uh clubs or or organizations?

Ninder:

Yeah, yeah. So in the UK, I'm a member of the Chambers of Commerce. I work with Chambers of Commerce all round the around the country. Um, obviously, when I was sitting as a as a board member, of course, you learn to mix with a lot of people there.

Lukasz:

Sure.

Ninder:

I tried to go, I tried to go to as many different events with different people, so smaller events with startups, because I remember I was a startup. I like to go to uh social enterprises, these are people who set up community-based projects because they do so much for their community. I like to go to the corporate stuff so I can see how the big macro pictures coming together. And that's why every year we put on a Midland Economic Summit and a tech summit, because we want entrepreneurs to come to that, those events to learn. This is not about celebration, this is about learning, connecting with other people. Again, by connecting with other people, it's not lonely, but you see the big political, the big economic events that affect not just your country, because we live in a global world now. We're all connected. And if something goes wrong in Europe or something goes wrong, and we're talking about a war in Europe, and it's right around the corner from you, then it affects you, it affects us, and the US. So Southeast Asia, Asia, they've got frauds there, the Afghanistan had an earthquake. So all these things do influence you because the supply of services and products change, yeah. Correct, and as they change, the prices change, demand changes. So we try to encourage through our summits and our awards, we encourage learning. And we encourage learning, and we encourage knowledge sharing, collaboration and partnerships. Because we're only on this world for a short period of time, and we've got to learn as much as we can.

Lukasz:

Yeah, absolutely. Wow, it's that's I really like that statement. I'll take a note of that, and maybe it will become a title of the episode. Thank you. Um so looking ahead over the next 10 years, do you think that uh recognition and community building will become even more important? Um, especially in the world where AI can you know step in and make up any appearance, image, or even full video?

Ninder:

So two things I would say there. I think since the advent of social media, um you would think we don't need to meet. Because actually, we can just post things and we can just do a WhatsApp. But back to our earlier comment, that observation that human beings like to meet.

Lukasz:

Totally.

Ninder:

And they like to converse. And you know something, Lucas. Um if somebody wants to meet me, unless there's a reason I can't meet them, I prefer to meet them in person. Maybe thereafter we can do a WhatsApp or a phone call. But you know, meeting people, seeing their eyes, the body language, I think makes relationships that much easier than from a detached form. So I think quite the reverse, I actually think social media and AI has meant that if you want to get something really fully developed, you need to meet people. Where these tools are good, these tools are good, is once you've met someone and you're comfortable with someone, then it becomes easy to just ring them or WhatsApp them or I don't know, have an avatar ascended. But but I think you'll never lose that human connection because by meeting people, you de risk, you reduce the risk of making the wrong decision.

Lukasz:

So while I agree with this, and I feel very similarly. Neither of us was brought up in the social media age, right? So I wonder if nowadays kids, right, if smartphones are around them from the very first days as a toy, as a camera to record their growth, right? I know that from my personal experience with my daughters right now. Um what about them? Do you think they will feel the same about uh human connection, physical connection, tramping, uh artificial okay?

Ninder:

That's a that's a very good observation. They have a different lens to us. And they and they're very happy to be transactional, so they're much more comfortable in booking things online than picking up a phone. They are much more comfortable in reading this way than reading that way, yeah. Um they prefer to drop notes, and and I'll tell you something else I've noticed. A lot of people, rather than ringing me, leave voice notes, so they actually don't want to speak to me, they just leave my voice notes. Okay, okay, okay. But equally, um, I can tell you from the music environment, concerts are getting bigger and bigger.

Lukasz:

That's true. Okay, yeah.

Ninder:

People with all this and TV, football clubs are getting more and more people attending. So despite the fact that you can watch a football match live, so forget the concert because you can't watch the concert. But people still go to football clubs.

Lukasz:

For the experience.

Ninder:

Because what got it, because what this doesn't offer you is that live experience. Now, people have said to me, people have said to me, why don't you stream the awards? Stream them and let people watch them. I said, if I do that, I remove the experience of being in the room. I'm actually being in the room, meeting people, speaking to people. That's why I will not stream them. Because I think if you stream them, you're encouraging them not to come. I want them to come in the room, build those networks, build those contacts, and have an experience. So you're completely correct.

Lukasz:

Okay, but I think there is something um in our psychic that makes us more excited when like as you said, you can watch the game, right? Men United against Arsenal on a tele, but it's not the same. That's actually on a local level, that's why people end up going to the pub, right? And watching it with friends so they can celebrate that together to experience the emotions that the entire group has. So I don't think that's um that's well.

Ninder:

I think the other example, Lucas, the other example, Lucas, is why do I have to go to a restaurant when I can wait to food at home?

Lukasz:

Although that is changing now with all of the door dash and all of that.

Ninder:

But still, if you want to go with some friends to eat, then you still now I I tell you where you might have a good point, is cinemas and Netflix and watching films at home, which is a bit like the music. But I think I think as human beings, we love to experience things. Now, what I do see, um, and there's evidence of this, is that more people are spending sorry, less people are spending money on material things like clothes, and things like that, and they're spending more money on experiences, they want to experience things, and they'd rather spend it on a night out with some friends, or go and do this, or go do that, or go to a concert, or go to football and travel, rather than spending all their money on clothes because the fashion industry has seen that grudge. So, so I think that is, despite you know, people in tech are saying, I think as human beings, and your words were it's part of our DNA, those are your words. I think unless you remove that, I think experience meeting people will always be better than sitting at home and doing everything from here.

Lukasz:

Oh, I certainly hope so. Otherwise, it's gonna be a very, very lonely world, right? With everyone in dirt.

Ninder:

Well, what was interesting, Lucas, was during COVID, we were able to understand human, we were able to watch that learning. And I remember, yeah, I remember we had to pause all our events for about a year and a half. But I remember when we came back, how happy people were to go back into a room celebrating not only business, but actually celebrating being alive. Because let's face, some people didn't didn't survive. So I always remind people that don't forget what happened during COVID. We're lucky to be around, we're lucky to have be able to meet people, and I think that's when you realized how strong the human connection is, the social connection. So I I think back to your point, you know, you can have AI, you can have voice notes, you can have text messages, you can have WhatsApp messages, but ultimately we'll always go to weddings, we'll always go to concerts, we'll always go to football matches, we'll always go and run in a marathon, we'll go to restaurants, because the human being is engineered to meet people.

Lukasz:

That's an amazing conclusion. Thank you. And to move to our second part about the future of business and young talent to segue into this. Um you're deeply committed to prepare the next generation of leaders, right?

Ninder:

Yep.

Lukasz:

And what do you think are the biggest opportunities and equally challenges for those young entrepreneurs today? I mean, somebody we already touched based on, so that's why I want to segue into it now.

Ninder:

Yeah, well, listen, we just that's a great segue because we've just been chatting about how the next generation world in a different place. Right. So I think the first thing we have to do is we have to understand their world. That's the first thing we have to do. Um, and you know something I remember when my parents used to tell me, don't do this, don't do that, don't do this, don't do that, and I think I find myself doing that now for my children. And then I remind myself, oh my gosh, that's what my dad and mom used to say. So I think the first thing we need to do is, and change is so rapid, it's so quick.

Lukasz:

Oh, yeah.

Ninder:

Um, we have to get into their lens, their mindset, and understand how they see the world. Look, they're um they should benefit from our mistakes. We've made enough mistakes. We have to find the right time and the right way to explain our mistakes so they don't make them. You know, they also have to make mistakes to learn from mistakes, but if we can help them in certain things, it'd be great. I think they're fantastic when it comes to technology, and you're absolutely right, Lucas. They've grown up with technology, they do not know another world. Yeah, and we have to accept that. We have to accept that they know the best of the physical and the digital, so they come with this key skill set that we don't have. They're very tech-savvy, but also I think what makes them different, they're a lot more global in their thinking. Yes, they're a lot more global. They understand the bigger picture, whereas people of my age and older than me, we were limited in the way we saw the world.

Lukasz:

Surely, I feel the same, yeah.

Ninder:

And they're yeah, and they're a lot more global. So they have a and they're a lot more mobile, by the way, as a result.

Lukasz:

So I think exactly, I think that's travel that makes a difference.

Ninder:

Yeah, and I think if the education system could work that, that would be better. But I think they have more potential to be disruptive than us, they have more potential to achieve more than us, and they have more potential to make an impact because they know how to use the tools of technology, which we didn't do and know, which means they can make decisions quicker, they can disrupt quicker, and they can have a quicker impact. So, in the old days, 40-50 years ago, it would take 30, 40 years, if if not longer, to build a big business. Today, with the right idea, with the right technology, you could be a billionaire in two, three years. Yeah, but if you look at the billionaires in the tech space, look at their ages. They're not in their 70s, they're still in the 30s and 40s. So I think the future is brilliant for them. I think the future is even better because they're globalists, so the problems we're seeing now hopefully won't be a problem because the new form of young leadership will hopefully see the world as a more global place. So actually, I'm very optimistic. I'm very optimistic.

Lukasz:

Fantastic.

Ninder:

Um, just the challenge is to make sure the two generations understand each other, we understand our limitations, we have limitations, and it's making sure that we understand there are areas that will always be better than us. And and you know something, Lucas, I'll leave you with this thought. When we were growing up, when we were 10 and 12, our parents taught us everything. 10 12-year-olds are teaching us now.

Lukasz:

I mean how to technology. I'm expecting this to happen.

Ninder:

Yeah, yeah, it's flipped, it's completely flipped. They're teaching us now, they're teaching us how to harness technology, how to make it work. And you know, sometimes I'm stuck and I call my daughter and said, Help me out. Now, I don't remember that happening when I was a child. It was the parents taught us.

Lukasz:

Exactly.

Ninder:

So I think that just tells you how the pendulum has swung.

Lukasz:

Yeah, the access to knowledge, right? And and learning possibilities nowadays are endless. Yeah.

Ninder:

Yeah, I think I think the one thing we can teach them, and this answers your question, is around soft skills. It's around being able to talk to people, explain how to develop interpersonal skills, communication skills, people skills. I think that's the bit we could probably input in, but I think the rest and I think there's one last thing, um, and I speak from personal experience, is as I was growing up, I grew up with an ethnic family. I was born in England, but uh I was from what we call a working class background, so my parents worked at local factories, and so for us to make that leap was a lot more difficult. Um and fortunately, I now move in certain circles, which is great. My parents couldn't because you know they weren't that highly educated, they they were more manual labor. So I think what I can do for my children and their friends is expose them to that network and say, go and talk to them, go and talk to them, go and talk to them. That is something I didn't have. I didn't have any idea what the big wide world looks like, and I think that's the bit people like you, Lucas, people like us who operate in a business environment, and therefore the amount of people we meet is a lot more than we our parents did. I know that for a fact. My parents had a very small circle, um, and that's something I think we can teach them. We can teach them how to lead better and the softer side of leadership and the softer side of connecting and building communities. You talked about community all the time, and understanding their role in communities as well as understanding how we can harness technology for the community to be better, and they're central, they can bring the two together brilliantly, which we were not able to.

Lukasz:

Yeah, fantastic. But don't you think all of given all of these advantages, right? And awareness of how the world looks like, I'm a little bit afraid or worried that um people who have specific mindset will tend to migrate to geographical locations like Silicon Valley, right? Where all the best companies in the world are, um probably objectively, right? Because there is a specific mindset, there is capital, access to capital. I mean so you get the brain drain basically. Yeah, how do you prevent that in local communities?

Ninder:

Okay, so two things. I think this is where the partnership comes in. So I think the public sector, these are our politicians, they have to make it easier for business to operate. So they need to make sure they have to make sure that the digital infrastructure is in place, they have to make sure the physical infrastructure is in place, they have to make sure we have good schools, they have to make sure we have good universities, and they need to also make sure that when a decision needs to be made, it's made quickly and for the benefit of the community and society. Now, finally, and to add to that, they need to acknowledge publicly the role of business. If you get some of those bits right, there is no reason why somebody would move. Now, back to your funding question. Back to your funding question. If you get those ingredients right, then external finance will feel confident about coming to your country, your region, your community, because they know these things are in place and they know that if they invest, they'll get something back.

Lukasz:

So you're saying capital is international and it's just gonna follow the trend, follow the correct.

Ninder:

So international capital will come to cities where they've got the best housing, where they got the best culture offering, where they got the best roads.

Lukasz:

Yeah.

Ninder:

Because the first thing a foreign investor does is they first look at the political scene. Is this country stable?

Lukasz:

Yeah, exactly.

Ninder:

That's the first thing they look at. Because if I'm putting money in there, can I get my money out? Then once they decide the country is safe, then they go to a particular city and say, if I invest my money in there, do they have the right skilled people, the right universities, the right schools, and the right housing and the right talent for us to invest in? And if I get there, can I transport myself around? Can I move around? Can I meet these people? Are they easy? I'm comfortable. So, really, it's a number of things that come together. And if people are not investing in your city, your region, your country, then you have to ask yourself why not? And these are the reasons, and risk capital, yes, Silicon Valley is a different place of its own.

Lukasz:

Yeah.

Ninder:

Um it's a different place. And I remember watching, I remember watching Jeff Bezos, and somebody asked him, such a brilliant comment you made. Somebody asked him, he said, Why are the most um sorry, why are the most efficient and the most globally known businesses and the most successful businesses all come from America?

Lukasz:

Y eah.

Ninder:

And his answer was, we have the best funding here. So back to your question much earlier, Lucas, when you talked about culture, you talked about entrepreneurs being acknowledged, not acknowledged, and the difference between culture around business in the UK, in Europe, versus America. So it's complicated, it's not easy, but my argument to politicians, you have to play your part. You have to play your part to make sure that everybody benefits society, business, and you as politicians, because we'll give you the taxes to grow the economy.

Lukasz:

Yeah, of course. However, you know, across the entire spectrum of all the political views, right, there are people who actually educate exactly in the opposite direction as well. And that's uh not without going into details, right? It's not relevant. But I'm afraid that in Europe it's so established that uh that too many people require that reimagining the perspective potentially before you get enough of interest into younger generation or people staying in and building something from scratch here. And that's also let's assume that that we achieve this as of now, just for sake of argument. That's that still leaves us behind with things like you know, infrastructure, everything on the internet is what the browser I'm using, right? Developed in US, the servers and the connection we're you know using here, they are developed in US. Um major technologies for bank transactions and someone are developed in US. So it's really scary how far how big that chosen is right now in terms of the basic infrastructure and technology to use. And yes, it's it's free to use, it's open to use, it's there's no lockdown. I don't feel like I'm locked down and I can choose to use something else. But at the same time, it might be easier for someone in San Francisco to start a startup there and to say, you know what, you come from Poland, you come from UK, why don't I relocate you to here? I pay your I pay your expenses, I pay you a hefty salary, you get the 5%, whatever the equity in my business, and off we go. Well, for example, in my country, it's not even easy to do the equity deal because it's not clear on the taxes side, you know. So that's so even out outside of the technology aspect, the charms in the infrastructure and the way that even politicians think, there's hardly, you know, we I believe we now have a single unicorn which is Inpost, it's a delivery company. Uh, first time ever out of 40 million people country, which is which is great. But it's also, I feel like the potential here could have been realized to much bigger degree, right? And same with any other country in Europe, by the way. I see this uh across a lot of different geographies in here.

Ninder:

I think you make a great point, and and that's why I said I think somewhere in our podcast that these businesses have grown despite despite...

Lukasz:

The environment.

Ninder:

The political and the cultural environment. They've that's where they need to be applauded. But you know, it's gonna take a while. I do my bit, I try and explain to politicians how they need to rewire their thinking and how they need to be more entrepreneurial in the way they think, because that will then help the next generation. But I I think the government needs to encourage schools to get them to think like that. But it all starts at the school level. If it starts there, then the next generation will be demanding of it. And I think if they're more demanding of it, then I think your next investment managers are brought up with that. And in the UK, certainly, I don't know about problem, but in the UK, we are very risk-averse.

Lukasz:

Oh, yeah.

Ninder:

But it's in America they embrace in America they embrace risk. Here you make a mistake and you're on the front pages. The business people are on the front pages. In America, they go, all right, let's go again.

Lukasz:

Exactly. Failure is a learning experience, not the end of it. Exactly. So from your perspective, uh, when you're a young entrepreneur, how should someone like that choose their raw models or seek sources for inspiration in Europe?

Ninder:

Okay, I think I think before you look uh for inspiration, um, and I think with the internet you can find them now. You can find them. Maybe 20-30 years ago you wouldn't because the newspapers never covered it, nobody spoke about it. But I think you firstly yeah, you can be inspired by people, but you need to ask yourself, are you ready to take yourself to the next level?

Lukasz:

That's a great question.

Ninder:

You can look at yeah, and and you know, you can look at the Bezos, you can look at all these great entrepreneurs, but have you got what it takes to get to where they are? And and to get there, you have to accept that, and you have to accept this because if you don't, um it's not gonna happen, you're not gonna become the next Bezos. Firstly, nothing in life is easy. So you have to accept that you have to have the capacity to put in hard work. That's the first thing. If you're not prepared to work hard at it, then you're not doesn't matter how many inspirational figures you've got, if you can't work hard, you're not going to do it.

Lukasz:

There are no shortcuts.

Ninder:

There are no shortcuts. Secondly, as long as you believe you're doing the very best you can, people will notice you. People will notice you. But you have to do the very best you can. That allows you to go to sleep at night, because you know you can eventually. I think I think yeah, I think thirdly, uh even if it's someone in a waiter, treat everyone with respect. Doesn't matter who they are, people notice when you treat them with respect. If someone rings you, just ring them back. Even if it's bad news and you don't want to do something with them, sure, just say sorry, it's not right for me, but thank you very much for reaching out. They'll respect you for that, right? Because they're not having to keep chasing you all the time. And I think the last thing I would also say, and this is where I failed, and I would say to people is watch the world around you, watch everything around you, read as much as you can, listen to as many brilliant podcasts as you do, because you learn from that.

Lukasz:

Thank you.

Ninder:

And if you can widen your horizons and learn as much. So I'll tell you where we made the mistake. So I was busy selling, and I'm trying to find if I can find one here. I was busy selling CDs and vinyls. I can't find one. And I and the rest of Oh my gosh, I've got one. So if you're listening in, you won't see, but I actually have a CD. Um record company, we were doing really well. We just had commercial success, we'd sold 15 million records, and we were doing really well, but we ignored the world around us, and we ignored in 2007 when Steve Jobs said...

Lukasz:

iTunes, right?

Ninder:

Here's the ice button. This is gonna change it. And we ignored it, and we suddenly were just and that's the first time I heard the word disruptive technology. So, Lucas, I became the expert at becoming the victim of technology. I may not know enough about technology, but I can tell you as a victim, I was the very first one. It affected the music industry because we were like ostriches in the sand, we thought nothing's gonna change. But I tell you who's even more guilty than us the film industry because those people who were selling DVDs obviously weren't watching what was happening to CDs.

Lukasz:

Exactly.

Ninder:

The CD and the D VD look like the same thing, and for Blockbuster and video shops to say, hold on, we're gonna be next.

Lukasz:

Absolutely, and I think that's criminal. And remember, Netflix was um asking to be bought by Blockbuster at some point, right? And they ignored it.

Ninder:

There you go. So I think my learning now is I read the news, I watch the news, I listen as much as I can to podcasts, I need to know how the world is changing because my competition, we talked about competition earlier, isn't just up the road. My competition could be in Bangladesh or Vietnam, who by pressing one button puts me out of business.

Lukasz:

Yeah, it's a global village now, right?

Ninder:

A global village. So I think you need to be learning all the time. So I have I have I try to read as much as I can, half an hour if I can, possibly every day. I need to be able to walk into a room, and somebody said something brilliant. I was chairing a panel, and on the panel, there was a guy who uh was running a tech company. And all he did was, and you'll know the words, he what we call disintermediate, he removed bits of the value chain, took them out, so it's speedier, it was quicker. So from the moment the product was released, he got to the client much quicker. And I said, So what are you doing here? You deal with customers, so why are you in here? You don't need to be sitting here. He said, in this room might be the person that puts me out of business. He said, So I need to meet as many people as I can and understand that one of these people might put me out of business. So rather than them putting me out of business, I've got to improve so I don't put myself out of business.

Lukasz:

Sure.

Ninder:

So I've got to improve process, and he said, the only way you learn that is going out and about, listening to speakers, meeting other people, and learning from them what tomorrow looks like because yesterday's world. And we in the music industry, we didn't go beyond today, and we thought by suing everyone in court for downloading for free, we can stop them. But you know, the customer is always right. And my final advice to anybody setting up a business understand the journey of your customer. If you can understand the journey that your customer takes, you'll do well. If you remove yourself from the customer's journey, which is what we did as a music industry, then you're in trouble.

Lukasz:

Yeah, totally.

Ninder:

So I think you can only learn that by listening, keeping your ears open, your eyes open, and learning from as many mediums, as many channels, which include people, so that you're one step ahead and you can anticipate, you can't predict, but you can anticipate what the next step will be before they put you out of business.

Lukasz:

Very smart. Yeah. And my last question is what is your personal biggest excitement about the future of business communities and youth entrepreneurship?

Ninder:

I think um, so somebody said to me, Um, you know, why do you do this? And and one of the remember my dream was to get into the charts with the music. So I've done that. So I actually I've I've achieved my dream, which was to get into the charts.

Lukasz:

Brilliant.

Ninder:

Yeah. And um and so that's that's something I'm always proud of. Um, but what I what I enjoy about doing events, what I enjoy about being in the media, what I enjoy is that I meet the most brilliant people, and I can't remember ever meeting someone that I didn't learn from. And I think back to the DNA, meeting people, I find great pleasure in meeting brilliant people, and I see great pleasure in watching them succeed and continue to succeed, and I watch the way these people have grown. That to me is the greatest thing I can do because I know if they're doing well, then the region and the community I live in, they will also do well. And you know, Lucas, the societies where you have least criminality, where you have least chaos, are communities where everybody's doing well.

Lukasz:

A bsolutely.

Ninder:

It's only communities where there's no economy, social inequality comes in, and only a few achieve, the rest don't. That's when you get disruption and social disorder and collapse of society. And I think if we can make sure that everybody who's born has an opportunity to achieve their potential, then I think we're all winning. And that's what I look for.

Lukasz:

Wow, that's a fantastic summary. Thank you.

Ninder:

Thank you.

Lukasz:

Ninder, thank you for such an inspiring conversation. What really stands out is how recognition isn't just about celebrating success, it's about building stronger communities. And just as importantly, investing in youth talent and investing in the future of our businesses and our regions that are lifted up by them. To our listeners, I hope you found both practical insight and inspiration in today's episode. That has been The Dev in the Details podcast. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and leave us a review. And if you're thinking about How to recognition your organization or prepare the next generation of leaders. Remember the details and human touch matter. Thank you for tuning in and see you next time.

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Lukasz Lazewski

Host
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Pedro Paranhos

Co-host