The Dev is in the Details
This podcast is about the world of Software Development in particular and technology in general. Here, you will find thoughtful discussions about tech leadership, AI, the future of technology, and success stories told by the people who made them happen. Your host is Lukasz Lazewski, a seasoned software engineer, tech leader, and entrepreneur.
The Dev is in the Details
Tech, Mental Health & Scaling Impact: Janessa Prawer on Lessons in Innovation & Efficiency | The Dev is in the Details #14
► How to leverage technology to solve real-world problems?
In this episode, we explore the intersection of tech, process improvement, and social influence. What’s the impact of technology and innovation on mental health? How to scale without losing the human spirit?
Janessa Prawer, a seasoned expert in mental health, analytics, process improvement, and owner at Tiny Art With Heart, shared her insights on how technology shapes our well-being and the role of innovation in mental healthcare. We discuss the role of authenticity in a tech-driven world, why balance is key while integrating emerging technologies, and the role of leadership in navigating technology trends.
► Our guest 🌟
Janessa Prawer 👉 https://www.linkedin.com/in/janessa-prawer-mba-1a5a4050/
Artist, Owner at Tiny Art With Heart, and Advocate for Mental Health.
► In today’s episode:
- How technology and AI support healthcare, increase staff efficiency, and streamline patients’ experience.
- The paradox of adopting technology and AI without losing human spirit.
- Leadership qualities and the role of the network in success.
- Humanity's role in shaping company culture and maintaining authenticity in the tech era.
- Potential risks of technology and impact on interpersonal relationships.
- Insights on technology trends focused on solving real human problems.
► Decoding the timeline:
00:00 How Does Technology Shape The Problem-Solving Approach?
04:52 The Turning Point in Janessa Prawer’s Career & Embracing Tech
08:28 Evaluating Leadership Profile & Impact on Success
10:59 Entrepreneurship Isolation & Leveraging The Power of Network
16:55 The “Woo” vs. Authenticity on Driving Impact
19:35 The Role of Authenticity & Company Culture
24:45 Maintaining Balance Between AI & Human Touch
31:40 The Technology Risks & Impact on Future Generations
37:40 The Paradox of Leveraging AI in Healthcare
40:11 Impact of Technology on Human Relations & Problem Solving Potential
47:18 Embracing Challenges & Value of Resiliency
49:23 The Future Trends in Technology and Key Takeaways
► Materials and information mentioned in the episode:
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The Dev is in the Details is a podcast where we talk about technology, business and their impacts on the world around us.
Łukasz Łażewski 👉 https://www.linkedin.com/in/lukasz-lazewski/
Write to us 👉 podcast@llinformatics.com
We're just a pie right and we're sliced in so many directions and there's so many pieces to give away. If you know that things should be challenging and you experience challenge and you struggle through it as a young person. You know how to do that later. Take the horrible pieces of your job that anyone could do and that kind of suck the soul out of your body and, if possible through technology, automate them.
Speaker 2:Technology and mental health may seem like separate worlds, but our guest, Janessa Prawer, has found a way to bridge the gap. With over two decades of experience in mental health care, analytics and process improvement, she now runs Tiny Art with Heart, an initiative focused on fostering empathy and creating more caring communities. Through her work, Janessa has tackled a challenge that many businesses and organizations face. How do you scale impact without losing the human element? From streamlining operations to using automations wisely, she has learned valuable lessons about leveraging technology to solve real-world problems, lessons that apply far beyond the mental health space. Together with our guest, we will dive into the intersection of tech, process improvement and social impact. Whether you're leading a startup, managing a tech team or building a passion project, there is something in this conversation for you. Janessa, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me. That was a lovely intro.
Speaker 2:It's well, it's your story, so I'm happy to you know, point out all of these elements. I'm really keen on having you here. I'm really happy that we did this. It's been a while that we tried to do it, so it's yeah, we'd be very happy to host you here today. So, as I mentioned, your background blends all of these different aspects of mental health, analytics and process optimization. How have these different skill sets shaped your approach to solving problems and how do you apply technology to help you with that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, my brain's always been a little bit on fire and I've always been sort of a creative, learner, curiosity person and so growing up I was very artistic, very creative, pretty much a learner in my leadership profile. As I got older and I wanted to kind of ignore that about myself and get a serious job and round myself out and I was going to be a business person and even though my interest was really humans and connection and art and all these things, I kind of ignored it and decided to pursue the concrete things. So I went and got my MBA and I got my Lean Six Sigma Green Belt and I was going to round myself out and somewhat ignore that other aspect of myself. And I think that what that actually did was in fact round myself out. In some ways it was deliberate, without even realizing it. So I, you know, for two decades worked in, you know, mental health, administration, all areas of that, and it gave me the opportunity to see how all the pieces connected, I think.
Speaker 1:And it took me a little while to figure it out, but once I did I knew I wanted to kind of break away and do something different and that I would fuse all those things together.
Speaker 1:So I've always seen technology as a solution to a lot of problems. If you're an innovator and a thinker, you can find ways that can make almost anything easier, and wouldn't we all love that? So most of my career was spent at the intersection of mental health and technology, building mental health assessment tools that were used in emergency rooms, and it greatly increased the efficiency of our mental health staff in their ability to assess and provide care for people, as well as to connect them through technology to available appointments across Minnesota, and that just lit me up even more, and that was early in my career. So when I launched Tiny Art With Heart, I knew that there would be a way to leverage technology, and I tried to do it myself as a learner, creative person, and that's when I, you know, had reached out to you for your expertise on how I could navigate it and kind of overcome the barriers that I was running into as sort of a citizen developer in the world, trying to do something I hadn't seen anyone do.
Speaker 2:It almost feels like you were running away from that learner in you, right. Initially, what you have mentioned here. Can you speak a little bit to this experience? When was the turning point in your career where you realized that you have to embrace that part?
Speaker 1:The pandemic. I hate to say it because it's such an expected answer and everyone kind of sighs and I've heard in many of your other podcasts a lot of people mentioning it around, like workplace efficiencies and connection, too, between co-workers and everything. But it really is truly, it had a real impact, and I think it was a restart or re-evaluation for a lot of people returning back to work and kind of going back to um the usual and and not being overly um inspired by the usual. And again, mental health too, which I have always known. But there's always a breaking point, right like my first career when I oversaw sort of 45 psychologists in emergency rooms during crisis mental health assessments, like I was working crazy hours and I was answering calls at 2 am a lot of them tech related and doing screen shares and all these kinds of things. It was on a Saturday evening when I was working in my mid twenties and one of my contracted people sent me notice that she was leaving. That was a breaking point and I was like you know what? I'm going to graduate school. I'm sick of this, right. So I left that job, you know, and I was like I'm going to go to grad school. For Tiny Art and launching that and kind of diving out there. Because I'm very risk averse and not someone who loves to be in vulnerable positions or take big risks. I knew that I had an opportunity. It had to do, like many things, right. What's going on in your life? What's going on in your career. Financially? What can you and can't you float. And so at that point I was comfortable enough in my career financially. My youngest hadn't yet started kindergarten and I was like you know what? I want to do some social justice stuff. I want to do some really meaningful stuff. And so I left, and it wasn't because of dissatisfaction necessarily with my job or the company. In fact, I still love them.
Speaker 1:Prairie Care was great. It was really just to kind of get out of the bureaucracy and the red tape, and I don't know if that you would know better than me. I mean, you're an entrepreneur too and you talk to them all the time, which is I'm so jealous that you get to talk to all these experts and ask them about what they do and why. But it was a breaking free and it was like I'm done with this red tape, and it's particularly difficult with regard to healthcare. In that industry, not just healthcare, but mental healthcare is very highly restricted and it can be very challenging. Like I'm good at overcoming obstacles and I actually love a really hard, icky problem to solve, but I just was kind of tired of constantly solving the problems and overcoming the barriers.
Speaker 2:Compliance right.
Speaker 1:Yes, so much, so much compliance. So, yeah, I think that's why I just wanted to see what can I do on my own without all of these. The company size matters too, right, if it's a huge company, there's more bureaucracy. Smaller company, less so. The country you're in matters, of course, and if you're covering multiple countries, then there's layers that you have to know, and so I thought, you know, if it was just me, what could I do, and so it was a challenge to myself to try to do something that might bring all those things together and fire me up.
Speaker 2:Fantastic. Super. Thanks for sharing.
Speaker 2:And what do you mean when you say leadership profile? Do you refer to some specific framework or a test?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I've taken so many leadership tests. I don't even remember which ones I've taken, but I do recall sitting in meetings, you know, at my workplace, where we all had at one point our names on a placard with our leadership profile underneath, and I was a learner and that's the one that stuck out to me and they always said to me the risk of being a learner was being unable to apply what you learn. And I have never forgotten that and I am. I'm hungry for knowledge, like all the time, taking it in all the time, and I I love that because it keeps me open-minded, keeps me informed. But then it's that application and seeing it through, which is really important for me to focus on.
Speaker 1:And, I tend to, because I'm very much a learner dive into lots and lots of things and it's so, it's very. I have to try to stay focused and that is the hard part, as a like an artist and a business person too, is to not go down too many different pathways, and I have such a service mindset. So I'm on a lot of boards that support a lot of you know nonprofits and contribute to to everyone. So we're just a pie right and we're sliced in so many directions and there's so many, so many pieces to give away. You're a parent, so you know how much parenting can take as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1:But so, yeah, I mean, that was one of the first things I learned was, that I was a learner and you're also futuristic or historical, and I'm actually historical, which was surprising to me. But, yeah, I love those tests, I think they're fascinating, and the last one I took said that I was green, yellow, blue, red, which is kindness, have fun, do it right, do it now, and so I always remember that too about myself. So knowing yourself is a big part of being successful, because you have to know where your weak points are and what you need to really push hard on. So, yeah,
Speaker 2:That's hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's fair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so true. Maybe I'll check with you later and if you remember some of the ideas of these tests, I'll put them in the footnotes as well, for our listeners.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I have folders with all the information, right?
Speaker 2:In your journey, did you feel like everything you said resonated with you very strongly, so I'm very keen on taking one of these tests myself now. I wonder, you know, Mariusz for me is very grounding element. He's spirit, he's calmness, he's hardly hard stopping on the ground right. He's like I'm a bit of a dreamer. Do you have someone like this? Do you ground yourself with some co-founder? Do you use other methods? How does it work for you?
Speaker 1:Well, that's the thing about it, too, is when you're an entrepreneur on your own or you're in that post pandemic, everyone's working from different places and everyone's always on and off, and in and out, and it can be very isolating. And there are a lot of organizations and groups and things for entrepreneurs that, honestly, I haven't leveraged but should and people always remind me about that. That I should use these female entrepreneurs and all these different groups that are around that have all this knowledge. You know, and I am a knowledge seeker, so I need to make that happen. But my husband is a very blue, analytical, do it right, very red, do it now kind of person. He's a physician and so we are such a funny pair in that way and so he is a great, he is a great grounding person who's always around. You know, he's not a business person per se because he's a physician. He doesn't think necessarily like that.
Speaker 1:So I have, you know, there's, like you, who I like to consult with on technology and entrepreneurship and all you know, although you and I have had it's hard to connect, but across the ocean. But I also have Dr Sogand Ghassemi, who's on my board and she is a psychiatrist who is very involved also on the political front of advocating for mental health, you know, and maternal mental health. She's fantastic and and we're always cheering each other on, so she's always there, and so there are these professionals and people around me, and it is not only, but I think women have a unique characteristic in their ability to kind of work in groups and work in community with one another. So I have just innumerable female friends who works for an online mental health firm company that provides online therapy across the country. So she's brilliant. She's launched nonprofits and all these things. She's just a force who can do all these things and parent three kids, and those are the people I turn to these things and parent three kids and those are the people I turn to. I have very authentic relationships with a lot of really skilled people, which is, you know, invaluable.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, fantastic. Leveraging the network right and also relying on energy of other people like to me, this was one of the biggest discoveries. As an introvert, you know, I prefer to walk through life alone a lot of times, right. And then I realized how mistaken I've been before about this.
Speaker 1:You know it's funny. A lot of people will be surprised when I say that I'm an introvert and I speak, I do storytelling in different venues and I do all these things and it's a long way in coming, right. I haven't always been this way and also I can do it if I need to right, like if I need to, I can do it, but it's not my preference, but it takes my energy away, right? So I'm wiped out after a big group of people.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Someone once told me that being introvert means that it doesn't necessarily mean I avoid people, but it means that I regenerate when I'm on my own, and that's so true. So this, even if I change significantly through the time that we know each other and now I'm more open to people and happy to have a conversation, you know, get to meetings, get to conferences I would still prefer to have my dark, quiet place where I can just, you know, lay down and look at it in a ceiling and do nothing to to fully recover.
Speaker 1:You know, I don't know if, like at least american society doesn't necessarily celebrate introversion right so it's like the extrovert that's given all the sort of like yeah, it's like what you're supposed to be or it's what we value.
Speaker 2:Interesting, I think this is common in Western world overall, that you just notice people who are very out there, right, very loud about it.
Speaker 1:So many.
Speaker 2:Yes, but it's changing as well. I mean, I think a lot of like even in business and startups seem like a lot of good leaders, and successful leaders especially, are actually introverts. So it's an analytical as well. So it's very interesting how it's potentially changing, I think. Or at least when you have a co-funding team, I see there are people who try to complement each other also an introvert, extrovert plane. So yeah, that's interesting, but I don't have I'll actually look into it.
Speaker 1:I was thinking the same thing, because I wonder if there is any like correlation between insightfulness and, just you know, introversion. Really like that space and time you take to be on your own is usually a time where you're thinking and, you know, evaluating.
Speaker 2:couple of weeks ago someone called asked me if I could do certain like take a couple of calls, you know, and make, make those phone calls. And I thought I can power through this. But I can't do it on a daily basis, it would, it would just kill me, you know.
Speaker 1:I wrote a blog post about vulnerability a while back because it really is like nothing I hate. Like woo is another one, Lucas, in one of these evaluated tests. I have like none of that. I have no woo. It's your ability to sell and like, be charismatic and whatnot, and you know I'm a learner and I'm an introvert, so I don't have any of the "woo. That's who that is sales, right? That is like putting yourself out there.
Speaker 2:I think you know, when you said "woo, it resonates with me. There's this test, Gallup test. Exactly, I took that one as well, and "woo was my last one as well, like the very last one, I think.
Speaker 1:I feel like my old boss, Todd, who you know very well, probably has the original, like everything, because I don't know where "woo was on mine, but I bet you, lukas, it was at the bottom. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that, except when I'm out there trying to hack my stuff to people and get them to buy it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. But don't you think actually on this, like I am finding out recently that people really appreciate lack of "woo in sales and conversations? So, when you talk to them about an actual problem and you present that you know about the problem and it resonates with them, I wonder if there's really a need to spice it up with woo. What are your thoughts on this? Isn't sales changing as well in that regard?
Speaker 1:I think that people care about authenticity a hundred percent and I think there's a balance between you know, if you present with that "woo, uh it's, it's a turn off. Um, interestingly, my, my parents-in-law, are looking at senior living places. You know, as they're getting older in their years and they've been turned off by many places who've kind of gone directly for the sale. You know kind of when you're buying anything. But this is like very significant right. This is a very big life change as you're moving to the death and dying phase. And they were very far into pursuing a residence where they were going to move and they asked for this large sum of money that hadn't really been discussed earlier and they immediately dropped it and they said nope, you never mentioned this and I think you know authenticity and being forward and honest and is so important. I agree with you. I think there is it's hard to have woo and authenticity standing side by side.
Speaker 1:I mean, sure it's possible, but I love radical honesty
Speaker 2:Radical candor is my Bible, so totally. Do you think this can scale, this radical honestly? Because it means, like, if we're scaling an organization, a group of people, commercial or otherwise, I see organizations taking compromises on quality or purpose. Do you think this is something that, the authenticity can be scaled beyond? Maybe I don't know founders of the organization who live it every day, obviously in their DNA.
Speaker 1:You interviewed someone on your podcast a while back who talked about company culture.
Speaker 1:And everything that he said was so true.
Speaker 2:Dirk
Speaker 1:Yeah, the way that he hires people and makes sure they read about the culture at the company before they come there amazing is important. And I think, you see, you know the companies where that culture and authenticity exists, because those employees are always, they're there for a long time and they don't leave. And you know it's going to sound silly, but Costco and is one one place where they pay their employees the most and I have seen so little overturn in the many years that I've been going there and that's just like a retail.
Speaker 1:It's not a big, you know some fancy company, but he said too in that podcast, you know, you hire, you create the culture, and the culture is what brings in the kind of person that you want. So if you're offering you know high salaries and you're offering big bonuses for achieving things and people, you're going to draw those people to that company who seek those things. And if they're seeking those things, it says something about who they are. I mean, I'm in America, right, like we are the most split country in the world and it is almost the authenticity on one side and all the "woo on the other, right and and I hate to simplify it and be so black and white, but just for the sake of the conversation, I think that you really do just it is the culture you draw one way or the other, and I often find myself I tell my husband all the time can we just move to Canada? Can we just move to Mexico? Just north, south. I don't care like this. This isn't jiving with my authenticity, which matters to me, and so some of us are just intrinsically motivated and where we work and what we do really has to line up with what we value, and that's not the case everywhere.
Speaker 1:So there are a lot of American companies I know of and I'm sure a lot that you know of where you are that are organizations that are very mission driven and their values, like you know your guest was saying, are really driven into who and what they are, and you need that, even from a strategic perspective, when you build your company.
Speaker 1:He was saying he had them on the walls right, and the values, everything the values don't change. They stay the same even if, like the wording you use, it's always that core, and I think that's the same with, ultimately, the strategy too, of what it is you're trying to do. Your goals might move a little bit, but how you get there doesn't change fundamentally. And so, I would say those are the lasting companies. Like we see, lots of people come and go, so if you're an entrepreneur, you can launch something, scale it up really fast, sell it and make a ton of money. Sure, if that's what you want to do. But if you, if you want to build something that's lasting which is me more rare now, I don't know, you would probably know better than me, but, if you want to build something that sustains itself and and sells things because of the quality of the product and because of the, you see, those companies last the test of time.
Speaker 2:What kind of legacy is also left behind, right, after the founders, or that leadership?
Speaker 1:I hate to say loyalty because that word is kind of like I don't know, I have feelings about it, but did you customers have a loyalty toward I hate to say brand, but culture, you know, like in the values of an organization and that kind of thing. And it does matter over time, I think, how people feel about what you do and why.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fascinating. Loyalty to the culture, not to the brand.
Speaker 1:Brand is the marketing word.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. Because and it's creative, right it's maybe less authentic than culture and people. Fun fact the majority of founders, or even sport people, have way more followers than any brand that they represent, including the sports club or the big. You know, like, what I'm saying is Tim Cook will have more followers than Apple itself, right?
Speaker 1:Yes,
Speaker 2:Because people connect with other people, I think so.
Speaker 1:Humanity, yeah, it's yes, it's the humanity in it. You are 100 right? I never thought about that, but yeah is. It is how you connect with where you, if you want to be businessy, spend your money. Like why do you spend your money here, why do you spend it there? And it becomes in America. Right now is becoming more and more important about where we spend our money, because we're seeing how companies and corporations are investing i n things that aren't just, that are maybe against your values, quite frankly.
Speaker 2:Especially now with advent of AI. I wonder, it allows us to do AI. I mean, and all of the tools that are coming out and already are present, for an average person to just subscribe, pay a little fee and have an amazing experience right with texts, investigations, research, everything like from Open AI, from Perplexity, all of these tools, but they make us tremendously efficient. But don't we lose a little bit of personal touch? because of these tools and how would you think of them as something to strike a right balance between one and another?
Speaker 1:Because well, okay. So, as somebody with a green belt, my favorite thing is to take the horrible pieces of your job that anyone could do and that kind of suck the soul out of your body and, if possible through technology, automate them. And there's so much to unpack there, because I'm also thinking about jobs that people used to do and found joy in doing that are, you know, yes, they can be automated, but should they always be automated? And what is that doing to us?
Speaker 1:There's a lot of potential loss there, I think, going back to just the foundation of trust too, in what we see and what we read and what we consume and what we create, and I'm thinking that from even just an artistic perspective, we're going to become more and more suspicious. I suppose I'm trying to speak more high level because it's hard. I don't want to get in too deep into the details, but the more that things are created by not- humans, the more we should hopefully be questioning what it is we're consuming. And yet, at the same time, does that not make us even more skeptical in general as people and less trusting? I don't know, I'm getting a little theoretical here and I don't know if that's what you were looking for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean certainly that's very interesting. I just want to hear your unscripted thoughts basically. So it's very good.
Speaker 1:Well, at the same time, though, Lucas, it's like I have AI in ChatGPT write me policies and procedures, in like 20 seconds, and I'm happy, so happy that I didn't have to do that and that I can provide that to some of these nonprofit boards that I work on, so that we can avoid liabilities and we can run a tighter ship and protect our staff, and just there are so many values. It's a slippery slope.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't cost you thousands of dollars, right, for your legal advisors and so on as well. So that makes that's a very pricey offering to have these done by human at this point. But I wonder where's the line? Because, you see, on one hand I understand that a lot of people would like to be bakers, right, and have their own bakery and do custom made bread or with special grain and so on, but some companies are still able to stay authentic to what they used to be. I don't know sometimes like I like to think of McDonald's not as a eating company or not as a restaurant, but as someone who really perfected policies.
Speaker 1:They are close, very close to lean six sigma right. Your, your hamburger is exactly the same, no matter what country.
Speaker 2:But I wonder you know how to strike that balance, like what I'm saying is, with an AI, now genie is out of the box. We can't put it back right, like no one will agree to say like, hey, you know what? Let's forget that this technology ever existed. But you could also argue that some work will be removed from people's plates and they'll be happier because they could just focus on doing what they're best at, and they may even be 10, 20, 100 times more efficient, right, so make more money, maybe have a better lives because of that. But there are entire sectors in the industries, like maybe translation, maybe content creation, right, maybe even legal eventually which will suffer. We're going to struggle because all the senior people are using AI now and all the juniors are jumping specific, like chasm over gathering the experience because AI tells them what to do. But when they then meet the real problem, or when a new generation of you know new software engineers will come in, because, as a result of that also, no one wants to hire juniors, right, what's going to happen in 10 years when there's no junior to hire because there's right, like, do we just assume that at that time it will be so smart that the product person will say, hey, I want this, this and that, and figure out all the rest for me, including deployment, scalability, what servers? So that that makes me curious, because I feel like we're gonna leave a lot of people behind, you know, in the transition.
Speaker 2:It's like ar revolution, like industrial revolution, like any other, and I feel like, oh, that's gonna be, it's interesting, I'm fascinated by it, I'm I'm looking forward to it. But that's one part of me and the other part of me is like what's gonna happen with, you know, my mom, who's in her late 60s, she just barely learned to use google, right, and now I'm telling her Google is gonna be gone, maybe next year, because she will talk to her phone and it will just talk back to her presenting her findings of whatever she needs, for the ChatGPT or equivalent um. And she's in deep shock, like saying, like what do you mean? Like I just learned to go to this website and put my query in, and it's amazing, right. And I'm like geez, 20 years later, and we all know that, right, because people have a different level of how savvy they can be technologically. So how do you feel about this, this disparity between how awesome technology is, but also how disconnected with human spirit it could be.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that you said human spirit. You're hitting a an important thing for me, because I am that. I'm literally embodying that right now. Because I I love efficiency and I love making things fast and I I love it's. It's something to be said where, like, so I'm 44 right now and you know, and as you get older, your brain becomes a little more rigid in general, and I'm always conscious of that. Luckily, I'm a learner, but and you are too, I can tell because you just you're always comfortable with change, you're always ready for the next thing. But not everybody is that way, either because of age or because of their personality or their developmental capabilities. I think you are right a lot of people will be left behind.
Speaker 1:I'm really interested in what people value, because, in the end, I'm over here trying to lift up artists and young middle school kids who are learning handmade crafts. And you know, I just listened to a podcast I feel like it was on the Ezra Klein on Wall Street Journal or something, but they were interviewing the man who wrote "The Anxious Generation and they were talking about what is happening to all our kids and our future generation in their sort of dopamine addiction to touchscreens and that immediate satisfaction and the anxiety it's providing them and the addiction it builds in their brain to this dopamine response. And he had recommendations of when should a kid be touching a touch screen and when should a kid have access to social media. And those recommendations I wrote them down and I've got a 12-year-old about constantly asking for a cell phone and after this and other things I've read I'm like you know you'll hate me, but I'm going to wait as long as I can. I feel that way about social media. I have to use it as a small business owner but, gosh, do I hate it so much? I hate everything about it. Really I do, and I always wish there was some other way for small business owners to reach audiences and people. It's like we're all just forced to do this because podcasts are beautiful, because you get to know a human and it's very authentic and very different and I love listening to them. When I'm doing other things, I look for the authenticity, both in human relationships, friends and people around me in places where I shop. But again, I wrote about this in this Canvas Rebel article that I did as well.
Speaker 1:People, as things go faster and they're already very fast to your point, convenience becomes increasingly important and when you're a parent, especially in american culture, you know you have to have all these things, which means you have to have money to buy them, which means both parents have to be working and bringing in money so that they can have these things. So they can, you know, and it creates anxious kids, anxious adults, you want rapid fire things accomplished. You're buying everything on Amazon and having it delivered to your house and you're only shopping at one store that offers, you know, that has cheese and milk and bread, and it all comes from these huge, you know organizations like you were mentioning. And, as a small business owner selling a handmade thing, it is very much back to the culture or the story or the purpose of what it is you're doing that people would take the time out of their incredibly busy day to do an inconvenient thing, which is to go elsewhere and look for something different as a gift for someone or that has purpose and pay even just a little bit more for it.
Speaker 1:In like our economy in America right now, where eggs are like $10, you know, I mean small businesses in anywhere are struggling in America. It's definitely a thing, because it's very hard to crawl up, you know, to the top. I did a local news spot on creative corner on Minnesota Live here, and my traffic on my website shot up. You know, like a thousand visits in like a very short period of time and you know, rapid sales and really fast. Just a blip, which I knew it would be a blip, right, and now it's back to the same sort of like every relationship you grasp onto, as a small business owner, because you are, you're competing with these really efficient things and I think it's not just people are. They have what? What did they say? Eight seconds of attention, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:At this point, I think, generally speaking.
Speaker 2:Probably even less.
Speaker 1:They don't have attention, yeah and we're making it worse right, the touchscreen dopamine, just like our kids are. Just, they have no patience, they can't focus in the classroom, and that's what teachers are saying, and this is why, and so we're creating this generation of people behind us even that are growing up with the AI and with the touchscreens and their attention spans are short. They want everything convenient and they want what they want. To your point, they want their McDonald's burger the way they always want it. I imagine that's going to create a lot of inflexibility in people in general, just like their unwillingness to wait for anything and their desire to have everything be just as they wanted. It's very consumer driven and our consumers are becoming increasingly inflexible and impatient. And as providers of services, you know it's really hard to meet an inflexible, impatient customer base.
Speaker 1:I know I'm generalizing, but like you know, this is what I'm seeing, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1:It all feeds into itself and I have the same concerns as you. So I have these adorable, wonderful, authentic kids in our middle school crochet club that they started making beautiful things and trying to sell them in markets. And I want to like leverage them and lift them up, and artists who are trying to sell their things. And it's so hard to be a small person with an authentic purpose and get in front of lots of people and have them have the patience and the time to support it.
Speaker 2:So true, I kind of still believe that authenticity will help people like yourself and all of these kids to go out there and be successful. Because if everyone else is, it's like with McDonald's right, you know what you're getting, but if you really want to have a good burger, you're not going to go to McDonald's. So, I think, and you're going to go to an authentic place. You know who carefully picks their meat, right. But I wonder about another paradox of something you mentioned here, because, on one hand, AI means that, through ChatGPT or otherwise, people can get help and I know it's not a certified medical device, I mean, the ChatGPT isn't eventually, there could be a specific model just for that, just to play a doctor, or at least initial qualification of people's feelings, right, to send them to a real person afterwards, or even, hospital or somewhere else, if it's really, you know that immediate support is needed. But on the other hand, it's actually the very reason which causes that anxiety and the mental breakdown in the society these days., right, so it's interesting. That it's both medicine and a poison in one, potentially. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:It totally is. It is absolutely causing anxiousness. It is actually pushing people apart and creating sort of a a loneliness epidemic where people aren't coming together anymore because they can get what they need without ever leaving their houses. Um, we saw that during the pandemic, like the rise in youth anxiety and depression and everything in that generation. Those kids are still struggling and it's about a willingness to come together, I think, in the end, because who's going to choose the AI evaluation over talking to a real person? They text each other. They don't even text each other. It's, you know, snapchat and they can't spell right Because they're just like there's a lot of like lost arts communication, conversation.
Speaker 2:For sake of efficiency.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I'm trying to find some positive out of it. So maybe this will sound naive, but do you think that because then they will have more capacity or energy to do other things, they will grow into some other direction, even at the expense of the communication skills or the texting skills?
Speaker 1:That could definitely be an advantage. I mean, I always try to be an optimist. I think that they might be excellent problem solvers, you know. Because if they're less likely to, if they know what the tools are and they're growing up learning that there are all these tools and then if they find that there isn't a tool or the tool is not doing what it is, they need it to do and they live in this sort of anxious, fast world. They want a solution. There will be those that look to be problem solvers and continue to improve upon what's out There'll be those that shut down and just accept things as they are. So it just depends on on each person's temperament, so some people will rise, I think for sure, and I do think then they'll be.
Speaker 1:And again, honestly, there are fewer people going into the field of mental health, generally doctors and social workers, psychologists, because it is such an intense field, because there's such a need too that it feels overwhelming and that it can't be met. And the cost, of course, of going to school for it isn't necessarily resulting in an income that's really going to cover the cost of that education. So there's a lot of barriers there. So I mean that's a whole another conversation as a solution for loneliness, like I mean, I'm afraid of relationships in the future between humans.
Speaker 2:This totally scares me. Yes, absolutely, because you know, also as a parent, right, like what kids will do, who they're going to end up with, or even nowadays we might think for the next generation whether they will even end up with someone or you know, and it's not to say that I should tell them how to live their lives, but obviously the numbers and general population is dropping and that drop is only getting faster and faster. So, there's a lot of cases where ideas are presented with like, you called it out, like relationships with artificial items, to the level where the artificial item has that intelligence in it, where it pretends to be a human being, which is always to our liking, which is not what the real relationship with other human being is about. Right, and it's not authentic because a machine will never run out of patience.
Speaker 1:It's not real. It's easier, right? It's easier, we always go towards the easier thing.
Speaker 2:There's a book, I might twist the title now I read years ago, Struggle is the Way" I think the entire idea of human condition is that the only reason why we end up happy is because we go through some struggles and then we can identify the difference on the spectrum, what it means for an individual to be happier and happy for various different experiences. Uh, but now we're going into this direction of um I don't know how to call it like only only happiness, right, because we'll have pleasing us robots. So what's going to come out of the next generation or next group of people who only had those pleasing robots around them, whatever form they will take? Because there's also the entire problem of um. You know industry for adults as well, right, what's going to happen with that thing? And I'm tremendously worried.
Speaker 2:Like seeing, even even in my generation, I'm 42, right, but even in my generation the access to certain content is so easy nowadays and it twists these kids with the perception of what the relationship is, especially between genders or in intimate relationship. Let's put it that way. It doesn't have to be between genders, it can be within, and that is even without AI. And now, if you add an AI on top, which can generate this dynamically for them per their expectations, thoughts, preferences, and then, on top of that, physically materialize that in form of a machine that does this, then I'm like wow, you know, that's the moment where I stop thinking beyond, because I can't. That's the moment where I lose my optimism,
Speaker 1:It's like Star Trek at this point undefined point, and we're Spock, we're all going to be like Spock, we're just going to be. You know, I don't know, I don't know. It is terrifying. I will this, say this you brought what when you Struggle said struggle is way" the way and you're talking about this book title, if that is the title, or whatever. But your upbringing, like how you were brought up to, I think makes a difference and I hate to say this but I'm going to say it. Resilience is one of the things they're not seeing in the upcoming generation. They're not resilient and they don't know how to deal with anything because they're the snowplow parents or the helicopter parents that's what we call them here in the US anyway are like constantly moving obstacles out of their way and they are friends with their kids rather than taking that parent role in the same way. And that resiliency is, I think, what helps us do. What we know is what we should do versus what is easy, if that makes sense. And so I mean.
Speaker 1:up working in my parents' little cafe and resort, right Mom . and pop, very small town, northern Minnesota, in the woods on the lake. We had a couple of cabins, very ramshackle, not fancy at all. Almost funny If . I think back of how they were decorated. It was just really terrible. But anyway, little cabins and little rowboats and we had the same families who would come and they would stay every summer for two weeks with their families and they'd eat breakfast in our cafe and they'd stay in our cabins. And we had relationships with all these families that would come every summer and I grew up in this environment. When the restaurant was closed they'd come in and have dinner. My mom would cook for all of us and we'd all have dinner together and I mean those relationships were so lovely and it was such an interesting and authentic way to grow up and I worked really hard. You know I wasn't a farm kid, but I compare it to that because I cleaned those cabins and I bussed the tables and cleaned the tables and in that restaurant my sister same thing.
Speaker 1:The business was ours as a family and we all contributed and I learned about hard work and I learned, I swear there's a point in what I'm saying, but I learned that hard work and the hard road is usually the right one. And that has bit me a few times in my life where I'm doing things in such a hard way, and I don't need to be, because I assume it's the right way. But I don't know that that exists now as much anymore. Like, my upbringing was very different, certainly different than my kids are experiencing, and I'm not saying mine was right. But if you know that things should be challenging and you experience challenge and you struggle through it as a young person, you know how to do that later. If you don't get that resiliency and you don't have that mindset and the world is hard. You're going to lean toward the easier thing, whether it's the robot, fiance, right? Or the robot dog that never poops and you don't have to clean anything up. You know that's what you're going to do.
Speaker 1:I will say this however, it's all about what you value. My husband and I are very different. He uses the K-cups in the coffee machine. It drives me crazy. They say they're recyclable, but I know that they're not. But I give him this one thing right, but I don't want to use them, and so there are little shortcuts he takes and little shortcuts that I take in life, but otherwise he and I are very the same in like hard work. We believe in hard work.
Speaker 1:And yes, 100%. And the values, like he's the other value system and just being resilient and trying to teach that to your kids and instead of preventing all the roadblocks and things. Because that makes us more vulnerable to what it is you're describing, which is this people- pleasing, convenience- focused, mass- food- produced world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fascinating. I agree, I agree. 100%. f Fantastic way to put it as well. Thank you. And on a more positive spin, what are the kind of trends or or you're looking forward to in seeing materializing technology or product development or accessibility for general public?
Speaker 1:I think a lot of the technologies are definitely helping for older adults in various ways, whether it's medical outcome. And even my husband has been pleasantly surprised and he is a tough critic with diagnostics for dermatology, you know, which is very complex, right, and medicine is still very much art or you'll always need doctors, you know, overseeing anything really that technology can do. They can just do it so much faster and then you can look at those probabilities and make an assessment. But so there's that, like there's the, the spreading of expertise to help people on the health care front. With the aging population, there are always newer and cooler ways to spread expertise in that way. There's risk too, but I think the reward outweighs the risk with regard to helping our smart people reach as many people who need them as possible. And I mean I do listen.
Speaker 1:I know I said I was like an optimist. I wasn't born one, but I am one now. I tell my kids all the time. I have a book that I gave my 12-year-old. My mother gave it to me when I was like 12 and it's watercolor painting and it says: expect good things, these things So some artist made this book and she gave it to me, and I gave it to my 12 year old and it's inscribed by my mother so that she knew for sure. Right, I could prove that my mother gave this to me and I had the same perspective at her age.
Speaker 1:It comes with age as we get older. I think there are going to be still. I believe people have a heart. I believe that how they feel about things does still matter and that will always matter and they will gravitate towards those things, and support, hopefully, those things, and maybe technology will find a way to make it easier for people to support those things that they feel good about if they're not convenient, is what I'm saying. So, like those specialized cheese shops and those specialized, you know, my friend who has her bakery up in Northern Minnesota and she's this incredible pastry artist and she can be successful. I remember you sharing with me a while back was it cookies, I remember?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I have a friend who has a girlfriend and she prints cookies. She, you know, uses the printing machines.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you told me how she, when you were trying to inspire me and how she did this. And there's still that thread of authenticity, you know, in there and you know, listen, I've gone the opposite way, like I love all that technique technology can provide, and there's something about the human touch that I don't think can ever go away. And meaning and purpose in what you consume, whether it's a podcast, right, or it's a food that you eat or a company you support. I think people, they do care about how they feel.
Speaker 1:Not everyone does. And I think there's even that is sort of a roller coaster in your life, like when you're young, it matters a lot because you have all the time, you don't have any kids and you're just all passion and yeah, I love these, I'm going to protest and I'm going to. And then you have kids and you're exhausted and you don't have time and you want to use the reusable bag at the store but you just you can't even try to get it in the store with you.
Speaker 1:Because you're just trying to survive. Your kids get a little older and then you're like oh, they're watching me, I have to set a great example about what matters in life and you become a better person for them. And my hope is that as I get older, I don't get more rigid in my thinking and I keep my open-mindedness. So I guess, to your point, like you had said, we're kind of driven one way or the other. We're given even like social media, if we're smart, if we're educated, if as long as we can stay educated, that might be the answer, because social media, everything drives us towards things we're already interested in, right, so it sends us way over one direction. Oh, you like this. I'm going to just be giving you more content about that which you know steers you way over here and everyone else way over here.
Speaker 1:And I think we just need to make sure people understand what they're consuming. And I don't know we're doing a great job of that. I think other countries do. I think Scandinavian countries make their young people go through financial training about money, right, just so practical, right. We can do the same thing about stewards of information. Yeah, finances, what you read and see, understanding the source of information and its relevancy and if it's worth believing. I feel like education is always the answer. Right, Lucas, but how do you, how do you get it to people with their short attention spans? Right, sound bites, right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, education is critical in all of this, and I love that you said roller coaster, because, and that the sun comes out after the rain? Uh, because it's, even any entrepreneurial journeys like this, it's always ups and downs, so maybe, there should be a pattern to just recognize that in any society or down to individual lives, that we're gonna have this and it's maybe a different ups and different downs. But still, my assumption has been maybe wrongly that it's on only up, only the ups, right, because of AI, only only the apps because of the technology. But that's not necessarily true. It's just going to be different kind of ups and downs.
Speaker 1:ven have to have faith, I think, in nature, which is really hard sometimes. And right now in particular, at least in this country, it's harder.
Speaker 2:Yeah, times are certainly interesting nowadays. A lot of food for thought as well. I took tons of notes to think about this and maybe even attach some additional resources after this episode.
Speaker 2:So Janessa it's been fantastic to hear your insights on using technology and on impacts and maintaining well when you do it, how you maintain your humane side and how you promote empathy in all of the actions that you take and do. So that's marvelous.
Speaker 1:It's an absolute pleasure. It's a pleasure to talk with you always.
Speaker 2:Janessa, it has been fantastic to hear your insights and thoughts on using technology and how you create impact while maintaining empathy. Thank you for sharing your experience with us. To our listeners. Thanks for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review. Until next time.
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